[13:12] Timberwoof Lupindo: We can start now, though... I want to do three things.
[13:12] Timberwoof Lupindo: 1. talk about what Black Gazza is supposed to be.
[13:12] Timberwoof Lupindo: 2. talk about problems we're having.
[13:13] Timberwoof Lupindo: 3. what to do about how we, as officers, are implementing the plans we have.
[13:13] Timberwoof Lupindo: No policy decisions: Takala and Grylor can't make it.
[13:13] Timberwoof Lupindo: They are feeling a bit fed up with things.
[13:13] Timberwoof Lupindo: ... and are at work.
[13:13] Doc Andrews: Lorm is on
[13:13] Timberwoof Lupindo: gang-TP him?
[13:13] Timberwoof Lupindo: Hiya!
[13:14] Schneelocke Saarinen: Hey Lor. :)
[13:14] Tiger Macbain purrs
[13:14] Timberwoof Lupindo: Lormyr, did you get my email form last night?
[13:14] Canis Rufus (canisrufus.spengler): Hi Lor
[13:14] Lormyr Daviau: Good morning
[13:14] Doc Andrews: Is our new officer coming?
[13:14] Lormyr Daviau: I did.
[13:14] Doc Andrews: Hmmm too early in Aussie maybe?
[13:14] Tiger Macbain: I don't think so. Ko works in a nursing home - last I'd heard he'd caught something nasty
[13:15] Doc Andrews: Eww
[13:15] Tiger Macbain: so he may be working more or recovering still
[13:15] Timberwoof Lupindo: ooh :(
[13:15] Bo Thistle: Part Rshast, part raccoon. What have we created?!
[13:15] Sydin Zeplin: Aww.
[13:15] Tiger Macbain: like - got better but is making up loast time. Or isnt better yet
[13:15] Doc Andrews: Rshacoon?
[13:15] Tiger Macbain: and - let's see here. It's 16 hours ago tomorrow in australia.
[13:15] Sydin Zeplin: Something horrible...
[13:15] Tiger Macbain: so for him this would be..... 4am monday?
[13:15] Tiger Macbain: do I got that right?
[13:16] Schneelocke Saarinen: Which part of Australia is he from?
[13:16] Timberwoof Lupindo: That sounds about right.
[13:16] Tiger Macbain: west I think
[13:16] Schneelocke Saarinen: All of Australia isn't one timezone.
[13:16] Schneelocke Saarinen: Ah, yeah, western Australia is at 4:16am right now.
[13:16] Tiger Macbain nods
[13:16] Tiger Macbain: hehehe, I'm good.
[13:16] Tiger Macbain: ;)
[13:16] Schneelocke Saarinen: :)
[13:16] Timberwoof Lupindo: Shall we bgin?
[13:17] Sydin Zeplin: Yes.
[13:17] Schneelocke Saarinen: Are we going to use that moderator cone thingamabob again?
[13:17] Timberwoof Lupindo: So let's spend just a few minutes, say 15, talking about what BG is supposed to be.
[13:17] Tiger Macbain: you can track the rhythm of my insomnia by my global friend's list.
[13:17] Tiger Macbain shuts up an dlistens
[13:17] Timberwoof Lupindo: LEt's take turns, using Friends rules, not Robert's, and I and Lormyr will go last.
[13:17] Timberwoof Lupindo: Tiger?
[13:17] Tiger Macbain: yes?
[13:17] Timberwoof Lupindo: GIve a short summary of what you think BG is? What's the Spirit of Black Gazza?
[13:18] Lormyr Daviau: Just to warn, I'm in slight crisis mode... something in my apartment smells like it's burning and my place isn't very livable at the moment....And the people who instigated this meeting are notably not here.
[13:18] Tiger Macbain: To me, Black Gazza's primary purpose is entertainment. We're here to have fun in an inclusive, supportive, welcoming environment. That fun is had through enjoyable roleplay that should be both fun and stimulative of people's imaginations.
[13:19] Tiger Macbain: well you could accuse me of instigating the meeting. I'm the one who pissed off Grylor and Takala
[13:19] Doc Andrews: Oh I thought it was gonna be people yelling at me all meeting. Maybe it'll be half the meeting! =)
[13:19] Timberwoof Lupindo: The blame-spread is in the fridge next to the humble pie. We'll have that later.
[13:20] Timberwoof Lupindo: We'll get to that, Doc. But let's do some basics firts.
[13:20] Timberwoof Lupindo: Tiger, what's the theme, as you see it?
[13:20] Canis Rufus (canisrufus.spengler): I have very little idea what's going on or exactly why this meeting was called, I had one brief, quite agressive ofline im from grylor, and I've been waiting to catch him online but I've not been able to geton much this week
[13:20] Tiger Macbain: Black Gazza is a science fiction roleplay sim first, a BDSM playground second, and a community socialization hangout third.
[13:21] Timberwoof Lupindo: Okay. Canis? (I'm going clockwise from where I see people.)
[13:22] Canis Rufus (canisrufus.spengler): Well, BG is a science fiction BDSm prison roleplay, the primary purpose of which is for people to enjoy themselves and have fun in that theme with like minded people. If you want more detail, I need more time :P
[13:22] Timberwoof Lupindo: Fair enough. We can cover the basics now...
[13:22] Timberwoof Lupindo: Schnee?
[13:24] Schneelocke Saarinen: ICly, BG is a harsh prison located in a science-fiction world with advanced technology but no magic. OOCly, in this SL incarnation, it's an RP environment with a scifi prison theme (naturally) intended for BDSM roleplayers to meet, interact and have fun. It provides an environment, background and common expectations that'll allow players to RP and have fun without having to spend considerable amounts of time negotiating first. It's an inclusive, friendly, open, tolerant place - not entirely without rules etc., but generally laid-back and relaxed, allowing people to have fun THEIR way rather than telling them to do it OUR way (within reason and within the boundaries set by the theme and rules).
[13:24] Timberwoof Lupindo bows down in respect to a well-written opinion.
[13:24] Timberwoof Lupindo: Doc?
[13:25] Doc Andrews would say that BG is a safe place to explore BDSM, roleplay, and sexuality. "We could change the theme tomorrow from sci-fi to dark fantasy, but the importance of the place wouldn't diminish in my eyes. Sci Fi is a backdrop, a beard. Just something that regulates the stories we all tell together. The Shye universe is well defined, so it provides a great level of consistancy."
[13:26] Timberwoof Lupindo: mhmm. Bo?
[13:26] Bo Thistle: Black Gazza is a dark-future oppressive prison, run by a corporation, overseen by bueracratic lizards that people get sent to to be forgotton about. OOCly, it's a BDSM/fetish roleplay sim set in a floating space prison with a background set in Lormyr's Shye universe.
[13:27] Timberwoof Lupindo: Mhmm. Sydin?
[13:28] Sydin Zeplin: What Canis said...
[13:28] Timberwoof Lupindo: heh. I'm at the end of words, too, for theme ... all that, with a picnh of craziness, a dash of oppression, and a long dash of loss of contorl.
[13:29] Timberwoof Lupindo: Lormyr gets the final word on this question.
[13:29] Lormyr Daviau: Are you asking me what is BG on the phamphlet or what BG is to me?
[13:29] Timberwoof Lupindo: To you.
[13:31] Lormyr Daviau: BG represents a safe place where, initially, furries could go and experience prison/BDSM play without prosecution, and I made sure that it was opened up to everyone that I could legally make sure could have that right. The setting that I have been writing since 1993 gave me a good background to build from and allow me to test my ideas, concepts, because honestly -- when I don't bring things into the public, I have no idea if ideas or concepts I made are great or idiotic. I have no measuring stick for that, but BG allows me to build, test, and create without prosecution and amoungst those that are smart, intelligent, and wonderful to work with creatively.
[13:32] Timberwoof Lupindo: So I think we're all on the same page about what BG is for, thematicallt and in a meta sort of way.
[13:33] Timberwoof Lupindo: We officers have been trying to facilitate making that happen, and lately there have been conflicts between us. I think they are confllicts of style, along two axes:
[13:33] Timberwoof Lupindo: Axis 1 is emphasis on sex/BDSM and Axis 2 is on strictness of rules
[13:34] Timberwoof Lupindo: I thought about a third, quality of roleplay, but I htink we're all agreed that that is desired to be high.
[13:34] Tiger Macbain raises his hand
[13:34] Timberwoof Lupindo: Are there any elements of conflict people are in that aren't on those two axes?
[13:34] Timberwoof Lupindo: Tiger?
[13:34] Tiger Macbain: I'd argue that the main source of conflict is the tension between inclusivity and exclusivity.
[13:35] Timberwoof Lupindo: Can you clarify? ON what basis, and whom, are we excluding?
[13:35] Tiger Macbain: I think the axes you've identified are facets of that larger tension. Do we a large, rough-and-ready place or a smaller, more carefully controlled environment?
[13:35] Canis Rufus (canisrufus.spengler): Well Lorm said he wanted to open BG to al he legaly could, that sugests to me we want an open and flexable environment
[13:36] Timberwoof Lupindo: Okay, I'll go along with what Tiger said. Thanks, Canis. Anyone else want to weigh in?
[13:37] Schneelocke Saarinen: Weigh in on the question of whether there are other areas of conflict, you mean? Not on the conflicts that DO exist yet, right?
[13:37] Timberwoof Lupindo: yeah...
[13:37] Schneelocke Saarinen: OK. Mmm, I'm not aware of any.
[13:38] Lormyr Daviau: That was my intent. Of course, the political environment is more sane now, that particular reason is kinda faded. More places are allowing furries in BDSM places than they did 3 years ago. Some day that perhaps we've succeeded in our ultimate goal.
[13:38] Lormyr Daviau: Some say
[13:39] Timberwoof Lupindo: Tiger's mention of "exclusivity" brought to mind that we *do* exclude some themes and types of play. I'll mention them just for completeness:
[13:39] Timberwoof Lupindo: We're not Gorean, fantasy, or superheroes. We're not a shoot-em-up.
[13:39] Timberwoof Lupindo: (Heh. Furry Gorean. Needs to be done.)
[13:40] Schneelocke Saarinen: Furean?
[13:40] Schneelocke Saarinen: :)
[13:40] Lormyr Daviau: (*twitch*)
[13:40] Sydin Zeplin: Hmm....
[13:40] Timberwoof Lupindo: Furrealism.
[13:40] Doc Andrews: And I guess we exclude macros over the size of a city bus.
[13:40] Canis Rufus (canisrufus.spengler): .(has been done, i lived next to one in jaguar valley, nice girl when OOC)
[13:40] Tiger Macbain: have we? Akamar has been playing - he's obnoxiously huge.
[13:40] Doc Andrews: He's a smallish macro. There are macros 1/4 the size of the station.
[13:41] Timberwoof Lupindo: Bigger than a bus? Okay .. I like Tiger's characterization of the tension: rough-and-ready or tightly controlled.
[13:41] Tiger Macbain nods. "I'm not aware of any macro whose ever been explicitly asked not to play at BG - though I agree there's a limit beyond which an avi's size is disruptive.
[13:41] Timberwoof Lupindo: Let's talk about what we think it ought to be. Tiger?
[13:42] Canis Rufus (canisrufus.spengler): I think a fair amount of the "exclucivity" isnt "excluding fantast" or whatever, were a scifi sim, thats obvious, I think some of the tension is around excluding or including particualr roleplaying styles
[13:42] Timberwoof Lupindo: Canis, can you elaborate on that? What sorts of styles?
[13:43] Tiger Macbain: sure. I think we have rules for the sole purpose of facilitating quality play. When there's a conflict between the players, the first thing to look for is whether someone is "right" or "wrong" in the context of our rules. And if so, we resolve the dispute by informing folks of what the rules are. By and large, if folks are having fun in an environment of mutual consent, then we should keep our interventions minimal and non-disruptive. Rather than provoke conflicts, you can go a long way in my experience with a tap on the shoulder and a patient explanation of something.
[13:44] Canis Rufus (canisrufus.spengler): well the umber one difference, people who are ultra strict on sticking to every detail, details historys, ongoing plots, every little thing mist be exactly right, every detail mist be strictly adhered to, and then those who say that the most important thing is to have fun, and you can stretch things a bit if it makes it more fun, within reason
[13:44] Tiger Macbain: The move towards "cracking down" on the new players and busting them for trivial rule violations is something that, in my opinion, will drive people away from BG and "poison the well" of our reputation
[13:44] Timberwoof Lupindo: Sorry for mym muddling on protocol there, but both Tiger and Canis touched on an important thing, from slightly different angles.
[13:45] Timberwoof Lupindo: (It's hard to tell sometimes who's talking.)
[13:46] Tiger Macbain: i'm done answering your question.
[13:46] Timberwoof Lupindo: So what do we think BG ought to be in this regard? I think Tiger already said it shoudl be a bit more laid-back. Canis?
[13:47] Canis Rufus (canisrufus.spengler): I agree, Black gazza is an online roleplay, peoplecome here to relax and have fun, not to have people breathing over the shoulder and saying things like "no, you shouldnt use that surgical instrument, use this one instead" to use a random example. Most of our members work, or go to school, and come here to unwind.
[13:48] Timberwoof Lupindo: Anyone else?
[13:48] Canis Rufus (canisrufus.spengler): I think tiger and my points are slightly different, but connected
[13:48] Canis Rufus (canisrufus.spengler): On a personal note... I'm inceccently micromanaged at work, as a result when I log into sl I'm looking for freedom to express myself without too much interference on petty little details or having to track a thosand and one little things to make sure what i want to do isn't going to interfere at all with any of them.
[13:48] Canis Rufus (canisrufus.spengler): and thats my bit
[13:48] Schneelocke Saarinen: Give me a moment, I'm trying to write down some thoughts on a notecard.
[13:48] Doc Andrews raises his hand.
[13:48] Timberwoof Lupindo: Thanks, Canis. ((Sorry about the micromanagement shit. That sent me to the ER back in December.))
[13:48] Timberwoof Lupindo: Doc?
[13:48] Doc Andrews chuckles. "What it ought to be? We have rules. If we don't enforce the rules, we're toothless. If we don't WANT to enforce certain rules, modify them or eliminate them. But let's not selectively enforce rules when we want to. It makes us look like hypocrites. And doubly so when it's the officers themselves breaking the rules. If we hate them to that degree, change them! It's laziness, pure and simple, when we look at a rule and say: I hate that rule, why do we enforce it... only to never bring it up in a meeting, never vote to change it, and leave it on the books. Get RID of the rules that we can't stand, and then we won't need to enforce them."
[13:49] Tiger Macbain raises his hand
[13:49] Timberwoof Lupindo: Tiger?
[13:49] Canis Rufus (canisrufus.spengler): *raises his paw too*
[13:50] Timberwoof Lupindo stars listing who wants to speak. Let me know.
[13:50] Schneelocke Saarinen: I do.
[13:50] Tiger Macbain: to me that misunderstands the purpose of the rules. The rules are designed to *facilitate* play not to *dictate* it. When two players have a dispute over something like a knife, we have a rule that says the knife is disallowed. That means we've put our thumb on the scales in favor of the person who says "you can't pull a knife on me."
[13:50] Tiger Macbain: if there's no harm, however, there's no foul
[13:50] Doc Andrews raises his hand.
[13:51] Timberwoof Lupindo: When tiger's done, i's Canis, Schnee, Doc.
[13:51] Tiger Macbain: already done
[13:51] Timberwoof Lupindo: Canis?
[13:51] Canis Rufus (canisrufus.spengler): I agree with tiger completely there, but i would add, we need to enforce our rules of course, but its important how we do it, we should be seeking to educate and improve, not punish, guide, not stomp on, and only repeat bad offenders need teeth used
[13:51] Lormyr Daviau: :raises his claw.
[13:51] Tiger Macbain nods
[13:52] Canis Rufus (canisrufus.spengler): thats my part
[13:52] Timberwoof Lupindo: Got ya, Lormyr.
[13:52] Timberwoof Lupindo: Thanks, Canis. Schnee.
[13:52] Schneelocke Saarinen: OK, two things.
[13:52] Schneelocke Saarinen: First of all, some general thoughts I wrote up earlier concerning the rules.
[13:52] Schneelocke Saarinen: The most important thing is whether people have fun. As I said above, this does not cover people who blatantly violate the rules or the setting should have, but as a guiding principle, the rules are there for the people, not vice versa. The rules exist to facilitate and enable fun; they're means toward an end, not an end in themselves. Whether we're finding the right balance in practice I don't know, but I think a lot of conflict can be avoided if all the involved keep in mind that a) every character is going to have a different personality, different objectives etc., and that b) so does every player. Players should assume good faith and try to work out conflicts like the mature adults they hopefully are.
[13:52] Schneelocke Saarinen: I'll give you a moment to read and digest that. :P
[13:53] Schneelocke Saarinen: OK, and on the subject of e.g. knives:
[13:53] Schneelocke Saarinen: Regarding rule violations - rules such as "no knives" can be violated if everyone in the scene is OK with that, I think, but that's a private thing between the involved players, then. It's not canon, as it were, and should not affect RP with other people later on and draw THEM into a scenario where a violation of the rules that THEY did not consent to has repercussions that affect them.
[13:54] Tiger Macbain agrees with that
[13:54] Schneelocke Saarinen: So, for instance:
[13:54] Schneelocke Saarinen: Use of a knife in private RP where everyone agrees: OK.
[13:54] Tiger Macbain nods. "But not in the center of a crowded cellblock pit."
[13:54] Schneelocke Saarinen: Afterwards going to medical to be treated for knife injuries: not OK, as it forces Medical staffers to deal with something that is pretty much explicitely against the rules and that they should not have to deal with without their prior consent.
[13:55] Schneelocke Saarinen: Yes, not in the center of a crowded cellblock pit, either.
[13:55] Schneelocke Saarinen: That's my thoughts on the matter, anyway.
[13:55] Canis Rufus (canisrufus.spengler) smiles and wags his tail at Schnee in agreement
[13:55] Sydin Zeplin: Agreed
[13:55] Timberwoof Lupindo: Thanks, Schnee: Good points. Doc?
[13:55] Bo Thistle: Agreed. If two or more people want to have a private knife fight that doesn't involve anyone else, so be it.
[13:57] Doc Andrews notes, "If we 'facilitate' play with the rules instead of enforcing them across the board, the players get mixed messages. Because some officers refuse to enforce them at all, others enforce them partly, and others fully. Every officer has their own idea what's important. Without a STANDARD it's chaos, we'll all stress the rules we find most important, and it's the players who suffer from a lack of a consistent environment. Magically, they can get away with something one minute, have all sorts of contraband, etc... and the next minute they're getting yelled at becuase they did it in the wrong place, in front of the wrong person. Is that fair? Is that the message we want to send out? You can get away with whatever you want as long as the people you're sceneing with don't know the rules? We'll assume they're 'fine' with it, but they might just think it's perfectly legal. Ten THEY learn bad habits, and pass them on.
[13:57] Schneelocke Saarinen: If I may...
[13:58] Timberwoof Lupindo: Lormyr and I woudl like to speak. Then you can, Schnee. Doc, is there more?
[13:58] Doc Andrews: Nope.
[13:58] Timberwoof Lupindo: Thanks. It's an important point and I think it's what we have to solve. Lormyr?
[13:59] Lormyr Daviau: I feel that Schnee is correct on a number of this... I think that we need to perhaps bucket things a bit better and or better define some of our rules or tailor them or perhaps get rid of them if they're doing us damage. I feel like we perhaps could be running into the situation that some US towns and states have where ... you have laws still on the books where you are not allowed to wear pants on Sunday or something like that... I recently caught people trying to enforce the rules about no nakedness on the main deck the other day, which is a law that we had from Day 1, but we only had it because we were on a unrated sim at the time and I wanted to have a bit of discretion when greeting new people. Now that we have our own sim that's rated adult, that can go out the window -- but we never truly explicitly killed that rule either. Also, please note, right now I'm giving a full opinion, not law in my statements.
[13:59] Lormyr Daviau: Let's say that we try having different strength buckets: We could have the rules or the Never Ever Cross that Line rules, then we can have "Suggested Guidelines To Make A Great Stay at Black Gazza", etc...
[13:59] Lormyr Daviau: EOF